Talk:Saiyan
Question Why can't Saiyans like Raditz, Nappa, Turles, Paragus, King Vegeta, Bardock's crew and Bardock can't go super saiyan? Since they are full blooded saiyans shouldn't they have the ability to reach super saiyan by having strong emotions and high power levels reaching a certain breaking point. Could the reason be that they weren't able to reach super saiyan because they did not live very long through out the Dragonball Z series and were killed very quickly not giving them the chance to be spared so they can get stronger and be able to go super saiyan. :The in-universe explanation is that unlike Goku who becomes a Super Saiyan in response to his enormous need to stop Frieza, most of the characters you name are on Frieza's side (even if it's because he has enslaved them), and thus are supported by the empire of the most powerful being in the universe (at the time). Goku became a Super Saiyan because he was at a disadvantage against Frieza's true power, and was the only man who could be depended on to defeat Frieza. As for Paragus, he reasons in The Legendary Super Saiyan that he's indirectly become the most powerful being because of the control he has over his son. :The rational explanation is that half of these characters were slain before the Super Saiyan transformation was written into the series (Turles included, since The Tree of Might was released before the Frieza Saga). [[User:Vixen Windstorm|'Storm']] [[User talk:Vixen Windstorm|'talk']] –''' [[User:Vixen Windstorm#Projects|'''projects]] 15:16, 17 February 2009 (UTC) :Also because you have to have a pure heart to become a super saiyan, etc. Saiyans in space This has been removed a few times, but it does appear to be true that Saiyans can survive in space without air. In all known instances where Saiyans were exposed to the vacuum of space, there were no adverse effects: *'Goku': Took Monster Carrot to the moon. *'Vegeta' and Nappa: Appeared outside of their Saiyan spacecrafts while Vegeta destroyed Arlia. *'Bardock': Flew to Frieza's ship (in orbit of Planet Vegeta). *'Broly': Survived in space after New Vegeta's destruction. Any reason why we shouldn't make a note of this? Even if we dismiss it as a fairly large plot hole, it still seems worthy of mention, perhaps in trivia? -- 09:00, 28 February 2009 (UTC) :There are a number of theories that can explain the first three examples, such as Vegeta and Bardock being within the limits of the planets' atmospheres. However, theories are nothing more than speculation. Thus, they are irrelevant. The only example that can be explained without the use of such theories is Broly. Broly processes the ability to create a barrier of ki that protects him from such environments. :Now as for the possibility of a Saiyan’s Self-sustaining capabilities in space, I don’t recall the Daizenshuu making any note or acknowledgment regarding this. In fact, by any argument over the factuality of the trait, if Saiyan’s did have such ability, why didn’t the race survive the destruction of their planet in space? You see? Just another theory. :There are numerous things left unexplained in Dragon Ball, things that can only be explained through theories. However, noting the theories as fact rather than theory would compromise this Wikia. If a theory can be proven as fact by an authorized source, then let it be recorded as fact. If not, then let it be recorded as theory. '-- bulletproof' 09:24, 28 February 2009 (UTC) ::The theory about being in the atmosphere of a planet doesn't necessarily apply to all of the first three, as Goku used his Power Pole to climb between the Earth and the Moon. The atmosphere of the Earth ends long before the Moon, and Goku was climbing the distance while carrying three people. This was done for comedic value obviously (in reference to "The Rabbit on the Moon" fairy tale), and Goku was back on Earth by the next panel so it shouldn't be taken too seriously, but at the same time it's canon and has never been outright contradicted. Everybody (including himself) just assumed Goku couldn't breathe in outer space, so Dr. Brief supplied him with the shuttle for Namek and the emergency space suits. It's as if Goku completely forgot about traveling to the moon in Dragon Ball, which some could argue is because of the loads of adventures he would have afterward. In my opinion Toriyama just forgot about that scene when he was writing the Namek arc, but as far as verifiability goes, this is an extremely debatable topic. [[User:Vixen Windstorm|'Storm']] [[User talk:Vixen Windstorm|'talk']] –''' [[User:Vixen Windstorm#Projects|'''projects]] 17:59, 28 February 2009 (UTC) ::Good note Nonoitall http://dragonball.wikia.com/index.php?title=Saiyan&curid=1526&diff=61652&oldid=61630'-- bulletproof' 18:20, 28 February 2009 (UTC) :::Guess I was wrong about when Broly survived in space, though it seems like I do recall him doing so without a pod at some point. It's been a while since I saw the Broly movies though. Anyone else know offhand when this was? -- 10:31, 3 March 2009 (UTC) ::::Hm, I haven't seen the movie in a few months, but the only time I can recall Broly in outer space without a Saiyan Pod was the scene where he casts a barrier around himself and Paragus when their planet is destroyed. [[User:Vixen Windstorm|'Storm']] [[User talk:Vixen Windstorm|'talk']] –''' [[User:Vixen Windstorm#Projects|'''projects]] 19:31, 3 March 2009 (UTC) :::::There was also the flashback to Broly's childhood where he was seen flying amongst an Asteroid field couldn't be near an atmosphere.. Also, in regards to the explainations towards Bardock being within the limits of the Atmosphere, that can't be it since he was high above the atmosphere. There's no way a planet's atmosphere extends beyond the planet itself. As for why the Saiyans didn't seem to survive the explosion of Vegeta, seeing how one of the scenes in the Bardock special showed some of the saiyans engulfed in a pillar of flames, it's probably due to the fact that almost all of them were incinerated by the blasts. The only characters at that time who would even STAND a chance in surviving an explosion like that would be King Vegeta, Bardock, and Broly. Vegeta was killed by Frieza by a blow to the chin, so he's out, Bardock was already weakened from the battle against Dodoria why he was having diffculty with stairs and collapsed in the pub where he made a failed effort to try and warn the Saiyans, and besides which, he was disintegrated by the Death Ball. As for Broly, well, the result's obvious. Ironically, he was the only one of the three characters with power levels of 10,000 to actually survive the explosion. ::::::Oh right, I had forgotten about the scene in Broly - The Legendary Super Saiyan where Broly was out of control in the asteroid field and he attacked Paragus. So really, that makes Broly and Paragus able to breathe in outer space (there's always the possibility that they weren't in an asteroid field, but that Broly had just destroyed a planet; but even then, no atmosphere would exist around planet debris). So really: ::::::Goku: Climbs to the moon on his Power Pole with Monster Carrot and the two Rabbit Mobsters. ::::::Vegeta: Stands on his Saiyan Pod in outer space, as he destroys Arlia. ::::::Nappa: Stands on his Saiyan Pod in outer space, as Vegeta destroys Arlia. ::::::Bardock: Flies into orbit to confront Frieza. ::::::Broly: Flies frenziedly amongst space debris with Paragus. ::::::Paragus: Flies amongst space debris trying to calm Broly's nerves. ::::::In short, every Saiyan who has ever been exposed to outer space (and there are as many in Toriyama's original work as there are in Toei's films, for those who are picky about canonicity) has been completely unaffected. [[User:Vixen Windstorm|'Storm']] [[User talk:Vixen Windstorm|'talk']] –''' [[User:Vixen Windstorm#Projects|'''projects]] 22:36, 8 March 2009 (UTC) :::::::movies are not cannon. broly has a barrier, perminently around him(like Super 17), the only in series examples are goku, which can be written off as a joke, like a lot of DB, and vegeta and nappa are in the influence of saiyan spacepods, which work even open(read the space pod page) I personally think Toriyama didn't care and just did everything he did for coolness's sake. However it is NOT speculation to assume that Bardock, Vegeta, and Nappa were within the limits of the planets atmosphere when they were in space as they communicated verbally, which (regardless of ability to "breath" in space) is impossible without some form of atmosphere. As for Bardock not being within the planet's atmosphere do not forget that planet Vegeta has ten times the gravity of Earth, and thus would be capable of sustaining a larger atmosphere. There is also the very high "Superman" factor. Superman can't breath in space (which makes since because it is impossible to actually 'breath' in a vacuum as there is nothing to breath), but he can survive in the vacuum for extended periods of time. Given Saiyan's other abilities and general fortitude it is very likely that they merely survive in space rather than being able to breath in it, like a human could survive under water for a few minutes. Has any Saiyan ever been shown in space surviving in space more than momentarily? No. Vegeta and Nappa only stood outside momentarily(even though they could not have possibly been in a true vacuum), Bardock was only outside for mere moments (even though, again, there must have been some kind of atmosphere), Brolly is Brolly and breaks rules, but even when he was in space it was only still shots giving no indication as to how long they had been out there, and the same applies to Paragus. It is speculation to say that they can breath in space as there is in fact NO evidence to support this. What it should say is that Saiyans have been shown to survive unprotected in space (only twice actually in Brolly and Goku with Master Carrot), and other times where they APPEAR to survive in space when they were actually in some sort of atmosphere. Abridged version, you can't breath in a vacuum by definition of a vacuum, you can't talk in it either, so therefore every single instance of them being in space minus Brolly and Goku with the Carrot guy occured in some sort of atmosphere. The Master Carrot event was clearly for giggles. According to Dragonball a Great Ape is as big as a huge freaking castle, so it really shouldn't be considered for information on Saiyans to begin with. Also the fact that the people in the show who would know the most about Saiyans clearly state that Saiyans can't survive in space is pretty damning to any counter-argument. Adroa 23:48, May 6, 2010 (UTC) :Actually, Bardock was much farther than that, and I don't think that a planet with ten times as much gravity would have an atmosphere that would extend halfway towards the central star in that system, not without being fried that is. Not to mention that the atmosphere's directly connected to the planet, so if Vegeta and Nappa were indeed in the atmosphere in some sort, they'd receive severe injuries when blowing Arlia up (and it was implied that Vegeta and Nappa usually blow up planets, even discounting Arlia), and Vegeta would be crazy to even try to blow up the Earth, seeing how, if he blew it up, he'd also, if not kill himself, then at least receive severe injuries (since when a Planet blows, the atmosphere ignites as well). Also, for the characters you cited, King Kai has also shown himself to know very little about the quadrant he's ruling, making his so-called omniscience questionable (yes, he's supposed to be omniscient, at least according to Gregory). Heck, at one point, he actually thought that Planet Namek blew up when it still only had five minutes left, not to mention not knowing that Nameks don't need water, and believing Frieza to be dead twice (three times counting the miscalculation of Planet Namek's immediate fate). Heck, he didn't even know Goku survived/escaped the explosion until AFTER Porunga told them. Frieza also bore witness to Bardock's last stand, so he was either having memory problems (doubtful, since he did recall it when he first met Goku, both in the Anime and the Manga), he was being extremely stupid (arrogant maybe, but not stupid), or he was trying to lower Goku's morale (most likely. After all, it is a common enemy tactic to at times falsify the situation in order to lower morale.). As for Broly and Paragus, they were in an Asteroid Field (or at least, it resembled an Asteroid field), and I doubt an atmosphere could exist in that area. Even if Goku's placing Monster Carrot was supposed to be for giggles, that still proved that he was more than capable of breathing in space (the Moon has a weak atmosphere, and the area between the Moon and the Earth's atmosphere is deep space (non-existant of atmosphere, in other words.). Weedle McHairybug 02:00, May 7, 2010 (UTC) ::Please try and remember that you are trying to apply our world physics to an anime universe created by a guy who has tenuous grasp on physics at best. The Dragonball Universe CLEARLY does not follow our physics (i.e. smaller planets have higher gravity or if your kung fu is good enough you can fly). I mean you're applying some definitions of atmosphere and not others. For example you assume it will ignite upon planet destruction OR only be very close the planet but that it is not necessary in order for sound to travel, when in EVERY last case mentioned of a saiyan breathing in space someone was also talking, not communicating telepathically, not sign language, not giant comical signs with sing words like "ouch", "oh crap" and "die saiyan scum" but talking. Bottom line Dragonball atmosphere DOES NOT equal our atmosphere and they can not be thought of as the same thing. Hell for all we know their meaning of "atmosphere" could be made up of happy thoughts of the bunny-puppy hybrids that inhabit the core of any life-supporting planet. So whether it makes sense to you or not, it is speculation to go against what the actual series says; and what the series says is: Saiyans cannot breath in space. End of story, that is all.Adroa 05:11, June 12, 2010 (UTC) :: What my point is is that it should be mentioned as part of their physiology, but a trivia entry should mention the ginormous plotholes this single fact creates.Adroa 05:15, June 12, 2010 (UTC) Saiyan Families I noticed in the battle with Tien and Yamcha Versus Shorty and Scareface, that when they witness Yamcha charging a spirit ball, how long it took. One of the Saiyans makes a remark that "his grandmother can gather energy faster than him (Yamcha)". The article says that Saiyans to not bond with family, as they are put on missions.But I would imagine to know that about his "grandmother", he would have to at least be with her from time to time and see her fight. If not, it must have some other relevance for he mentioned a family member. However, the remark he made could just be a mere insult with no meaning. picture the first picture in this article is kinda blury and should be replaced with a diff pic or a better quality clone of it.Ssj gogeta vs. broly 22:06, 13 July 2009 (UTC) :feel free finding a better picture.. Dyas 23:31, 13 July 2009 (UTC) Saiyan homeworld In Dragon Ball Z, it is said that both the Saiyans and Tuffles both originated on planet Vegeta and the Tuffles controlled the better half. In fact, the existence of the Tuffles at all is only in anime filler (which is generally considered non-canonical). I think this should be considered the real history since many don't consider DBGT canonical for its many plot holes and inconsistencies. My question is,where did they live before King vegeta Was crowned king of the saiyan race? --Team Midgars Silver Sinspawn 07:58, 13 August 2009 (UTC) Before the Tuffle-Saiyan War was won by King Vegeta the Saiyans lived on planet Tuffle, they always lived on planet Tuffle, until it was destroyed by Frieza. The Planet was merely re-named after King Vegeta's victory Arieus 00:08, March 25, 2010 (UTC) :That is just speculation you cannot say that the saiyans originated on planet tuffle because we do not know that for a fact it is your opinion that there was no other original saiyan homeworld and it is my opinion that there was an original so this question simply cannot be answered there is just too much speculation we have 2 simply agree to disagree 18:57, August 9, 2010 (UTC) : *correction to this article: ::The Planet Vegeta was called Planet Plant not Planet Tuffle! And the Tuffles existed in the Dragonball Z timeline under the Lost OVA "The Plan to Eradicate the Saiyans" which is being Remade for Raging Blast 2 :: :doesn't king kai explain that the tuffles and saiyans come from the same planet when he is telling goku of the siayans when goku first trains with king kai. Saiyans are Human? Who's to say Humans aren't Saiyan? Maybe their just related, with a common ancestor? T'Lani 11:17, 14 August 2009 (UTC) :Erm...why would they be related? Because they look similar? And besides, how would this be possible, the distance between Planet Vegeta and Earth was kinda big...Dyas 11:38, 14 August 2009 (UTC) ::Various other shows have multiple seperate species growing on seperate worlds that were 'seeded' by a much older, extinct race. That's the sorta thing I meant, both races having a common ancestor that 'seeded' Earth and whatever world the Saiyans supposedly originally came from (which couldn't be Earth because they lacked space travel prior to DBZ)...makes more sense than saying they are the same race that, by some freak coincidence, happen to exist on 2 worlds at the same time. T'Lani 15:38, 14 August 2009 (UTC) ::Plus you cannot forget that there may have really been an original saiyan homeworld before Planet Vegeta so that original planet may have been very close to Planet Earth this is just speculation but its still a point to look at 18:59, August 9, 2010 (UTC) ::irregardless,that is pure speculation,and we can't put speculation into articles.Brolyislegendary 21:25, August 31, 2010 (UTC) Rediculous information I'm almost positive that the majority of this article is made up bs. I mean, there's info about 300 year old Saiyans, which were NEVER seen in the manga or Anime, nor was it ever described what would happen to a Saiyan during advanced age. Also, there's info about their gestation period, which has, to my knowledge, never been explained in either the Daizenshuus, or by Toriyama himself. Personally, i think someone's got an overactive imagination, & it's ruining the article. This info needs to either have sources, or be removed. Malikarcanum 14:39, September 6, 2009 (UTC) Picture of Saiyan Group I'd like to provide some links to images of Groups of Saiyans for that info box at the bottom; one of them should be the original one in a -hopefully- better resolution ;-) The version currently used looks kinda blurry... Vegeccolo 07:07, October 13, 2009 (UTC) red,broken links don't help anyone.Brolyislegendary 22:18, August 31, 2010 (UTC) Revival and limbs when tien died fighting nappa he regained his lost arm upon death yet none of the saiyans regain their tails when they die. should this be out down as trivia or a plot hole? Oni Link 17:37, October 20, 2009 (UTC) Saiyan Eye Color There was, in fact, another of Saiyan blood to have a different eye color. Goku Jr. has dark blue eyes, clearly shown several different times in his special, and the last episode of Gt. I'm going to go ahead and change it. Adroa 09:28, December 4, 2009 (UTC) Fasha also seems to have dark purple eyes (at least on that particular screenshot) If it's true, this somehow would contradict Vegeta's claim that fully-blooded Saiyans always are black-irised... vegeta doesn't say anything about fully-blooded Saiyans aalways having black irises. he says saiyans always have black hair. and that their hair doesn't change from birth. Vegeccolo 09:47, December 4, 2009 (UTC) However, we must take into note that the refered GT episode/movie and the movie/flashback were Fasha appeared, it's only in the anime canon, even though that the Bardock TV Special is, in my opinion, something that fits perfectly well in the manga canon. Vegeta - San Talk 21:22, December 4, 2009 (UTC) Don't wanna just make an edit out of nowhere here, but.. The pronunciation bit as we have it now is wrong. The original pronunciation IS "as it's spelled". ai goes ai. This "si-yan/say-an" business shows someone with no knowledge of phonetics whatsoever. It should say "for the US version, saiya-jin is translated as "saiyan", pronounced like 'seiyan', but still spelled saiyan on title cards, etc." It's just similar to how, in the old dub (and a few lines in the new dub too, careful as they were), Kaiou-ken was pronounced as keiou-ken (somehow missing the king kai connection). Someone on the localization team thinks ai is pronounced ei, simple as that. : It has been changed a little now. The pronounciations are closer to the reality now, but there is always room for more information if you have it. Also, in the future, feel free to make such an edit right away as long as you have an explanation. Worst case scenario in that is that it gets reverted initially, and you have to explain on some user's talk page as well. 03:08, June 22, 2010 (UTC) About the pronunctiation.. Should we make note of some of the Recent Japanese material pronouncing Saiyan the way that it's pronounced in the English dubs? IE: Saiyan Blood http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18N70_iRSLs&feature=related I think it's interesting enough to note somewhere. Supersaiyanbatman 08:03, June 22, 2010 (UTC) i believe the actual literal translation is Saiya and/or Saiyan wend talking more than one individual ,remember the japanese add Jin on nationality or ethic ,like they call us Americans as Amerikajins take out the jin and end up as amerika add the n and end up as amerikan.--Linkdarkside 00:07, August 4, 2010 (UTC) Head wounds Is it possible saiyans minds are fragile during childhood? Particularly when they're babies, I noticed when Raditz first comes to Earth and realizes Kakarot(Goku) had become good and was now a protector of Earth and the humans he asked him if he suffered any head injuries while he was a child without knowing anything of Goku's past (After he left Planet Vegeta) I was thinking that head injuries and memory loss is common umong Saiyan children? This could be a reason why they are kept in those pods and monitered by doctors as infants. It could be that their head bones are very strong and durable, but their brains are fragile for quite awhile after birth, meaning any drop could injure a saiyans brain but a large drop (like the one Goku had) could critically injure a child, often erasing its memory and completly altering its personality, as in Goku's case Chris-the-killer 05:57, August 5, 2010 (UTC) :A drop like Goku's would kill a normal human baby, so Goku only getting amnesia isn't surprising at all. 06:29, August 5, 2010 (UTC) That is why I was wondering if Saiyan would have stronger skulls but possibly just as fragile or even more fragile braints. A fall like that would crush a normal babys skull, even adult human's skull would be crushed. But Raditz seems aware that a head injury could of made Goku the way he was, therefore I was thinking amnesia due to head injuries were common umong Saiyan infants, this would also explain why they have to be in pods in the first few days after birth. Chris-the-killer 06:55, August 5, 2010 (UTC) :I'm not really seeing how this is different than a human anatomy, other than being more resistant to injury. If a human baby was hit on the head very hard, but not quite enough to fracture it's skull, brain damage would be very likely. Likewise, if a friend of mine acted like he didn't know me and had no memory of anything that he should have, I would assume he had amnesia. Finally, all hospitals keep babies in special areas for a period of time after birth for check-up. 07:19, August 5, 2010 (UTC) : just a thought but the pods the saiyan babies are put in could be learning devices. coz raddits says "have you forgotten everything" to goku its like how chi chi gets gohan that device that allows him to learn in his sleep. Revival why werent they revived after they wished back everyone killed by Frieza and his men? :Well, for one thing, the wish that required that everyone killed by Frieza and his henchmen (either directly or indirectly) be revived was granted by the Earth Dragon Balls, which only revive people who have died within a year. Frieza's annihilation of Planet Vegeta happened almost 30 years prior to that wish, so obviously they couldn't be revived. Weedle McHairybug 18:21, August 9, 2010 (UTC) Age of Saiyans Since the age of Saiyans are slowed compared to humans and Pan hits 100 and still seems to be going strong, wouldn't it be logical to deduce that saiyans live twice as long as humans? Figure Vegeta was 55 by the end of GT so when Pan is 100 that would make him 150 which would make sense for him to have died. Anyone else think that is logical? Sorry,but that is speculation,and we can't add that per wiki policy.Brolyislegendary 21:22, August 31, 2010 (UTC) vegeta says saiyans keep their youthfull bodies so they can fight for long no indication of a longer life span than humans. Hair colour I vaguely remember that in the manga, when he first met Future Trunks, Vegeta states that all saiyans have black hair, which was one of the reasons he didn't believe that Trunks was a Saiyan. Can anyone confirm? 08:42, September 22, 2010 (UTC) :Certainly not true in the anime, don't know about manga... no colors and all. I guess someone will have to look for that statement. 01:14, September 23, 2010 (UTC) ::Ah! found it! Although it seems that some of the anime-only saiyans actually have non-black hair.. What does this mean? 13:22, September 23, 2010 (UTC) Hmm, his actual wording is, "Saiyajins should all have black hair." This may just be Vegeta saying that purple hair is silly. 15:15, September 23, 2010 (UTC) :Hmm, if that sentence was considered just by itself, that may be right. But I think that interpertation is out of context here. Since he is talking about how Trunks couldnt be a saiyan in the previous frame, I think my conclusion was more logical. And if he thinks purple hair is silly, I think he would've just said "Your purple hair is stupid" or at least "Everyone should all have black hair" instead of just "Saiyajin", That would make more sense. 08:17, September 24, 2010 (UTC) Everyone should have black hair? Nah, I can't see him saying that rather than all Saiyans. 13:37, September 24, 2010 (UTC) : Here's another translation proving I'm right link. In this version Vegeta didn't say "should". 08:51, September 25, 2010 (UTC) All it proves is that some translations are wrong, otherwise they would not say things with different meanings. The official Viz translation is what we go by. An official Japanese translation would be good too, but certainly not a fansub. 20:10, September 25, 2010 (UTC) :So for now, we only know that Vegeta might have implied that all Saiyans have black hair. I guess to delve deeper, we would need an official Japanese translation, or the original and someone that knows a lot of Japanese. In any event, even if that is confirmed, it is clear that the anime ignored that line. Though if we could confirm the original Japanese text, that should go in the article, noting it was only stated in the manga.--Sega381 04:08, September 26, 2010 (UTC) Hmm actually I think what happens here is that the words in the first translation can be understood in two ways (as you pointed out), but the second can only be understood in only one way. So, assuming that both translations are reasonably accurate, we can infer that the first translation meant the same as the second translation, i.e "Saiyans have black hair". Added to these two translations is the translation, whatever it was, that I read oh-so-long-ago when I first read it. However, to be sure, we need someone who understands Japanese to interpret the original text. I unfortunately don't speak Japanese. 15:05, September 26, 2010 (UTC) :We can also assume that they are both reasonably accurate, thus the second meant the same as the first, i.e. "Saiyajins should all have black hair." Clearly assuming anything is not a valid line of reasoning, and the only way to be sure is direct translations. 18:47, September 26, 2010 (UTC) ::If it could help, in the french version he says saiyans all have black hair. But he could be bluffing seeing his face when he says this and knowing him he wouldn't admit he's wrong about Trunks being a Saiyan. Jeangabin666 19:16, September 26, 2010 (UTC) Clearly not. Don't you see? The second translation cannot be interpreted as Vegeta commenting that Trunks' purple hair is ridiculous. It's clearly a statement about a genetic traits of Saiyans (Of course, Trunks was only half-saiyan). So assuming they're both accurate, they must mean the same thing. And that same thing cannot be this (because of the above reason), so it must be the other one. On a more general note, all arguments must assume some things, otherwise there would be nothing to base that argument on. So I believe making some assumption is a valid line of reasoning. Without it you have no foundation upon which to build knowledge. You could attack the assumptions and hence prove that the argument which was derived from them is invalid, of course. There is nothing stopping you to do that. 09:48, September 27, 2010 (UTC) :On this site, we do not make assumptions, we only state facts. As such, we cannot assume that one fansub is any better than another. 17:02, September 27, 2010 (UTC) ::That's precisely the opposite of what I have said. I assumed that the translations were equally valid. You have continually misunderstood what I'm trying to say, why is this?? ::Also on that more general note, I'm sure you make assumptions. Facts are based on assumptions. You assume that your senses were faithful to reality, and that your memory is good, that the translator did a good job, that whatever you were reading in the manga wasn't a misprint, (also you assume good faith from other contributors...but that's a different matter i guess). Most of these are reasonable assumptions, but each of them can be wrong. Without any assumptions, only apriori knowledge like "yesterday has already passed" is possible, and they are dull. Anyway this trail of argument is rather philosophical and irrelevant, and I hope it ends here. Talk more about Saiyan hair. 18:00, September 27, 2010 (UTC) Lol, yes quite. By facts, I mean what is printed in official publications of the manga (not fansubs like many online version) and what is said in the anime. If it is not officially stated, then it is considered "original research," and not included. 03:11, September 28, 2010 (UTC) :What does the official (English?) translation say? I also made a Forum post in help desk asking someone who knows Japanese to help resolve this. 09:35, September 28, 2010 (UTC) Not sure, I'm not currently in possession of the Viz sub. 13:26, September 28, 2010 (UTC) Is this going anywhere? more discussion about saiyan hair. How can i convince you? 12:56, October 10, 2010 (UTC) Vegeta says all full-blooded saiyans have black hair. Power increase Does it ever state how much a saiyan/saiyan hybrid's power increases after healing from nearly fatalwounds? jedi_master425 :not numerically, only "considerably" 09:40, October 14, 2010 (UTC) An Old Saiyan Just a slight question. If something can be confirmed out of it, it can be added to Trivia or something. In any case, I was wondering, is there ever shown, any seriously old Saiyan who looks similar to an old human, with actual wrinkles, etc... I know the excuse is made that Saiyans just have an amazing metabolism, but there from what is seen in the media, it doesn't seem like it is possible for a Saiyan to realistically look old. I mean, Goku and Vegeta are called "old" by a bunch of characters, but they don't look like it. Or did I miss something, and is there any image somewhere in the series that depicts a Saiyan who is well past his prime? Vellup 21:34, January 16, 2011 (UTC) Possible Revival? Guys. I'm new here, but I know quite a bit about DB. And, here's a Namek-sized plot-hole in the series. You know, when they wished back everyone killed by Frieza.... Saiyan Revival Perfect. Anothet plothole to deal with. The Saiyans were brought to life long before Baby came into the picture. Guess Toriyama forgot to catch that one. 21:35, February 18, 2011 (UTC) :The dragon balls can revive someone only if he has been dead for less than one year. Jeangabin666 21:43, February 18, 2011 (UTC) ::Not to mention that they would be brought back to the location where they died which is the destroyed planet Vegeta so they would probably die in the vacuum of space 13:37, May 17, 2011 (UTC) :::The latter part is debatable, though, as there were a few instances where this belief that Saiyans can't breathe in space was completely contradicted: For one thing, there was the infamous part of Bardock's final confrontation against Frieza's army in outer space outside of Planet Vegeta (something that was also in the Manga). We also have Broly and Paragus being in Space during Broly's youth in Paragus's flashback (and he wasn't even using his energy barrier), and don't even get me started on Vegeta and Nappa blowing up Arlia or Goku placing Monster Rabbit and his gang on the Moon. Weedle McHairybug 13:46, May 17, 2011 (UTC) Clearly the DB universe just has slightly different physics. 20:53, May 17, 2011 (UTC) Saiyans were Saiyans native to another planet before vegeta????????? A saiyan warrior 02:07, March 7, 2011 (UTC) :According to DBGT and Plan to Eradicate the Saiyans, yess. Jeangabin666 07:04, March 7, 2011 (UTC) : : I wonder why the Saiyans left there old planetA saiyan warrior 22:33, March 12, 2011 (UTC) :I think that the saiyan race could have possably evolved on earth, destroyed or used up most of its rescources and then left just in time for a new race to evolve, Humans, while i have no data to support this THEORY it could explain why saians and humans are able to produce fertile offspring. just a thought. 23:30, October 1, 2011 (UTC)SSMAN, 4:28, October 1,2011 (UTC) :vegeta's tail It Never Grew Back Probably Because They Cut it Off in Great Ape Form In the original dragonball series Goku's tail is cut off in great ape form and grows back ' 16:42, July 17, 2012 (UTC)' Breathing in space. Can saiyans actually breath in space. Because Vegeta, Bardock. But Frieza says they cant. So what is the truth.SSJman 00:01, April 28, 2012 (UTC) : Perhaps they can breathe in space, but not indefinitely, like Frieza's race can. Bardock was in space, leading the rebellion, and attacked Frieza, but died soon afterwards by Frieza's hand. Vegeta got out of his space pod to destroy the planet Arlia, then got right back in. And when Goku put Monster Carrot on the moon, which you didn't mention, he went up, made the deal, and came back down. As for Broly, he used and energy barrier. 18:08, May 30, 2012 (UTC) Possible Survivors This is a major plothole here. Back when King Vegeta was telling Prince Vegeta about the Super Saiyan legend, he stated earlier that soldiers that cannot prove their worth are sent away. All of King Vegeta's people were Saiyans. Plus, he may have already sent off Saiyans before becaus they could not prove themselves. Those Saiyans were most likely not in Planet Vegeta's vicinity when Frieza decided to eradicate the Saiyans, thus making them survivors, Plus, who is to say that Saiyans never attempted to leave Planet Vegeta? Look at Turles for example. There may be more Saiyan survivors out there than what Akira Toriyama confirmed. TheBlueSun 05:08, May 10, 2012 (UTC) :Doesn't sound like a plothole, just some things that may or may not be true and that agree with all of the events from the series. 05:36, May 10, 2012 (UTC) :I suppose so, but it does raise some interesting questions about the Saiyan race though. TheBlueSun 19:56, May 12, 2012 (UTC) Bardock survived in a manner of speaking. According to his episode, at least. Banak (talk) 22:49, July 8, 2013 (UTC) There probably are a number of Saiyans that survived the genocide that no one knows about.--Aang13 (talk) 16:11, June 21, 2015 (UTC) Monster Carrot on the moon In Dragon Ball, Goku took the notorious Monster Carrot and two of his henchmen to the moon. The only way they could get down was to make enough rabbit treats for all the children on Earth. How could they breathe on the moon? And did they get blown up with the moon in the 21st World Martial Arts Tournament? 18:17, May 30, 2012 (UTC) :See the Monster Carrot article. 18:26, May 30, 2012 (UTC) It was probably just meant as a joke. 21:52, May 30, 2012 (UTC) Trivia, maybe? Should this character in Vegeta's elite be mentioned somewhere? He's the only blonde Saiyan I've ever seen. Not sure if it's trivia worthy, but it is interesting. 15:55, July 11, 2012 (UTC) :It's already mentioned in the Appearance section. 23:19, July 12, 2012 (UTC) :i thought it would be worth mentioning that the saiyans ability to get stronger when near death may be a pun off of '' what doesn't kill you makes you stronger'' :22:04, febuary 09, 2012 (UTC) ::It belongs to and is already mentioned in the zenkai article. 00:40, February 10, 2013 (UTC) The tail The page says that a Saiyan's tail will grow back "unless permanently removed", but it doesn't mention exactly how to permanently remove the tail. Do their tails have a "root" of sorts, an equivalent to a hair follicle perhaps? Do we have any info shedding light on this? Ghost Leader (talk) 20:05, August 7, 2012 (UTC) :We don't really have any further info unfortunately. Like many things, I believe some character just said it, maybe Piccolo? 01:58, August 8, 2012 (UTC) Saiyan Ranks There appears to be a slight error with the Saiyan Army paragraph stating only low-class and elites were mentioned; In fact, there were 2 more ranks mentioned in the Ocean Dub, Raditz told Goku he was a "First Class" warrior when he had him pinned down with his boot, and Vegeta stated he was a "Super-Elite" during the battle with Goku. Ben2k9 (talk) 03:48, May 10, 2013 (UTC) Origine of the Saiyan section This section should be one part, not split. The Saiyans have one single origin, and it's stated several times in the series: in the anime by King Kai, then in the OVA by King Kai as well (adding how they arrived on Planet Plant), and then by Raichi in the same OVA (who adds how the Tuffles treated the Saiyans). Those stories don't antagonize each others, they complete each other + this article isn't an episode summary, so the origin of the Saiyan has to be one section with each source referenced, not a summary of King Kai's first story, then second story, etc... 21:56, October 14, 2013 (UTC) :Agree, they sort of complement each other. The Saiyans arrived in a ship, then lived in the outskirts, but they grew tired then attacked them 22:47, October 14, 2013 (UTC) ::Just to be clear, you want "2.1 Origins" to be split up and added to "2.2 War with the Tuffles", "2.3 Meeting other races", and "2.4 Annexation by Frieza"? 22:57, October 14, 2013 (UTC) :I want it to stay as it is, SSJGoku93 wants it to be: "2.1.1 King Kai's version", "2.1.2 Other versions", "2.1.3 Baby's version". 23:35, October 14, 2013 (UTC) So we have the option to list the source and then state all events from that source under it, or list the event and then put all the sources under it. The second of the two seems more like what every other page has. That is, we do not separate pages into a manga half and an anime half (and every other source), so doing it by King Kai vs. Baby as the source would be weird. 23:39, October 14, 2013 (UTC) Agrees with Jeanie. SSJGoku's version is terribru. 23:46, October 14, 2013 (UTC) I like Jeangabin666's (the original) version. I was going to revert SSJGoku93's edits myself originally. 00:05, October 15, 2013 (UTC) Hybrid saiyan power I wonder if it's possible that the strength of hybrid saiyans is linked to the strength of the saiyan parent at the time of conception? This would be unique to hybrids from normal saiyans. Gohan was much stronger in the beginning of Dragon Ball Z than Goku was at the end of Dragon Ball, if the scouter is to be trusted, but when compared to Goku later in the series, he is much weaker. Gohan is able to become a super saiyan at the age of 11, which was the youngest known occurence of this. However, when Goten and Trunks are born, they are able to lag just behind their parents and siblings in power for the most part: they can transform into super saiyans at the ages of 7 and 8 and it shown that trunks is doing push-ups and working under 150 Gs of pressure with his father while training for the martial arts tournament. This is much more than Goku was able to manage while travelling to Namek. Since Goten and Trunks advanced much more quickly than Gohan did (and at roughly the same rate as each other) it might indicate that the similar power levels of Goku and Vegeta at the time that the two boys were conceived lead to this result. Trunks was conceived while training for the android attack and Goten was conceived just before Goku fought Cell. The power disparity could be accounted for by the age difference between them: even though Goten is a year younger, he's nearly as strong as Trunks is (demonstrated when they try to fuse). This might indicate that at the same age, Goten would be slightly stronger than Trunks, which would make sense, given that Goku was stronger than Vegeta when the two were conceived (albeit not by much). Jaco The Galactic Patrolman So, I just finished reading Jaco the Galactic Patrolman, and he had some interesting information on Saiyans, that at the very least explains Goku's rather sporadic growth. According to Jaco, Saiyans have very long childhoods, (evidenced by just how small and short Goku appeared for the majority of his life), but after this childhood, a growth spurt occurs as the Saiyan's body quickly grows into a size capable of fighting, and from then, they can wreck havoc without truly aging from that point on. Additionally, the Extnction Bomb that the Patrolmen use to wipe out races doesn't affect the Saiyans, according to Jaco. Any of this worth putting onto the article?--Mina Țepeș (Enter the Bund) 08:50, April 14, 2015 (UTC) :These patterns are already in the article. 21:58, April 14, 2015 (UTC)